From: Krull, Kim Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:44 AM To: Joshua Krull Subject: FW: EIC questions -----Original Message----- From: smt640@mail.usask.ca [mailto:smt640@mail.usask.ca] Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:05 PM To: Krull, Kim Cc: sue.taylor@usask.ca; Hotchkiss, Don; three_krulls@hotmail.com Subject: EIC questions Thanks for your email.I apologize if you have gotten multiple copies of this email but I keep getting notices that my email has been turned away for offensive language. I have removed the B____ word and replaced with (female dog) and hope that will work. If you work in a high school, I am sure you have heard worse! As breeders we should be doing what we can to eliminate bad inherited traits and to promote good inherited traits in the litters we produce. I have always felt that that to be bred, a female or male dog should have some definite good traits that are likely to be heritable that they can pass on to their offspring. There should be a REASON we are breeding a specific dog whenever we breed them. In my best competitive field dogs (the only ones I breed) it is because they are great markers or liners or they have extraordinary intensity - others might have different criteria depending on what dog-games they play. When we do screening tests on our potential breeding dogs we do them to try to make sure that our dogs are not going to pass undesirable traits on to their offspring - both so that the people who get the resulting pups will be happy and they will have a healthy dog AND so that if those pups are bred when they mature we will not have "damaged" the breed gene pool. Many of the heritable characteristics we are only able to test for or observe the phenotype (clinical characteristics) to determine if our dog might possess some of the bad genes that lead to a disorder (like hip or elbow dysplasia or epilepsy or skin allergies). SO, if a dog has those abnormalities we do not breed them. Now with the advent of genetic tests for some conditions like EIC and CNM in Labradors we are able to identify not only the affected (collapsing ) dogs, but we can also identify carriers of the gene who are, themselves, 100% clinically normal. CNM is a rare myopathy in Labradors, so I do not think that eliminating carriers of that condition from the breeding pool will be detrimental to the breed. If I had a CNM carrier I do not think I would breed it. On the other hand.. Over 35% of all Labradors are carriers of EIC. To eliminate all of them from the breeding pool just because they have EIC (even if they are clear of all the other genetic disorders and they have some really excellent traits we would like to promote) could be detrimental to the breed. In particular, if a dog has many great characteristics that we have worked for generations to promote in a line we would be making a mistake to throw all that away because they are a carrier of EIC. I say (1) test for EIC (2) if your dog should be bred for the reasons outlined above, and they are a carrier, breed them to another dog who has all the great characteristics you want to breed to who is EIC clear. - About half of the pups will be EIC clear and half will be healthy carriers. ALL will make great pets and even great competitive dogs (if that is what you are breeding for) - the carrier pups will have no clinical consequences due to their EIC carrier status. (3) test the pups (dewclaws) while they are still with the breeder and sell with a guarantee of known EIC status. - Personally, I think I would charge differently for the clear vs the carrier pups as a way of trying to make sure that the "clear" dogs are the ones who go to homes where breeding might be in their future - owners who just want a really great dog might just as well get a carrier. - I would not bother to sell with limited registration - I would simply sell with education. If one of the carrier pups turns out to be a superstar, maybe they should be bred one day, but the list of their suitable mates will be more limited - they must be EIC negative - which is why I can justify charging less for them as a pup. (4) If this practice is followed we will (a) never produce another affected pup, which ends the heartbreak and $$ devastation of having EIC affected dogs right away in the first generation of informed breeding and (b) we will gradually decrease the prevalance of the carrier state in the breed and,(c) if we adhere to the policy of only breeding carriers if they are very special individuals we will, over time, eliminate EIC as a concern in the breed. Hope this helps and explains my feelings. - Before we had the ability to test for EIC I unknowingly produced litters with EIC carriers and a few EIC affected dogs. I am very relieved, that with the advent of testing, I will now be able to keep the good traits of my very talented dogs but never again worry that I will produce a dog affected by EIC. - I will NEVER again purchase a puppy from a litter where the EIC status of the dam and the sire and the individual puppy is unknown. I will also NEVER again breed a dog of mine (carrier or clear) to an untested dog. I think it is irresponsible for a breeder to not do the testing (just like it is irresponsible to not xray hips and elbows and CERF eyes). - We should not be afraid of the tests - over the next 10 years I'll bet we find 3 or 4 new conditions we can test for in the Labrador breed alone. We should look upon these tests as opportunities to make intelligent, educated choices in our breeding program. Sue Taylor, DVM Diplomate ACVIM Professor of Small Animal Medicine Quoting Kim.Krull@k12.sd.us: > Good Morning Dr. Taylor, > > Thank you for the work you have done on EIC. > > I am a high school principal at Freeman Junior Senior High School in > Freeman, South Dakota. > > I have a 23 month old AKC registered female yellow lab. After one of > her litter mates experienced an EIC episode this past summer the > breeders and I began to do some research and became aware of your work > on EIC. The affected dog and my dog had blood drawn and sent to the U > of M. Of course, as we suspected, the litter mate I described came > back as affected. My dog on the other hand came back as a carrier. > > I want to do the ethical and responsible thing here. We had planned > on breeding our dog before all of the above came to light. I have > been doing some research and there are those who have made arguments > that breeding a dog that is a carrier to non-carrier is O.K. as long > as the pups are all tested for EIC upon dew claw removal. Those > identified as carriers would then be sold as Limited Registration pups > and the non-carriers as Full Registration pups. The stipulation of > the Limited Registration could be that they could not be bred or at > the very least they could only be bred to non-carriers and all pups born to future generations would have to be tested. > > If a person wants a dog they are going to get one from someplace. Is > there credence to the thought, "It makes sense to get a dog from a > responsible breeder who has the pups tested and sells any carriers > with Limited Registration as less responsible breeders will not test > their dogs?" As a result is it not true that this would help to > improve the integrity of the breed? > > I'm simply asking for you position and thoughts on this. > > Sincerely, > > Kim J. Krull > > > >